Curse

Aera · Feb 28, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

I heard about this, and I got a bit scared of eF running that build. We faced eF. Pwnt them in 6 minutes. Gg.

Btw, don't blame the players for ritspike, blame Anet or something for the imbalance.

But yea that was f00kn hilarious

Zuranthium · Feb 28, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Funniest GW video ever, for sure!

I've been wanting to try that build ever since chaining Aegis became a lot less popular. Nice to see someone get around to it and kick ass!

~Z

Jedbacca · Feb 28, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

I got to see mastodon at the unholy alliance tour w/lamb of god and SLAYER!!!!!

Hyunsai · Feb 28, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Imagine the change: "Daggers are no longer affected by increase/decrease attack speed..."

Symbol · Feb 28, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

That change would be retarded.

vapor311 · Feb 28, 2007, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Force Black Lotus Strike to follow a lead attack. End of discussion.

Riotgear · Feb 28, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I've been wanting to try that build ever since chaining Aegis became a lot less popular.

Aegis can be bypassed with Expose Defenses. There are drawbacks to that of course, but it works.

Byron · Feb 28, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedbacca

I got to see mastodon at the unholy alliance tour w/lamb of god and SLAYER!!!!!

Its off topic, but MESHUGGAH > YOUR BAND. K THX.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyunsai

Imagine the change: "Daggers are no longer affected by increase/decrease attack speed.

Interesting, especially considering the "double attack" possibility of daggers. This could be both a hindrance and a help, if it meant that things like faintheartedness also didn't affect dagger speed (and ANYTHING that takes away the power of defensive hexes would be a blessing right now, IMO). Anet would never change a fundamental mechanic, but I think it's a pretty good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vapor 311

Force Black Lotus Strike to follow a lead attack. End of discussion.

Then we would just find another less spammable, slightly less effective skill chain.

Shadow prison is the problem. Please fix it. When I'm theorizing ways to fit shadow prison into a monk build, then it needs a bloody nerf. It also lets teams bring 5 billion defensive skills to the field, sit in wards, and poof-poof spike. It's just hurting gameplay.

Patccmoi · Feb 28, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Then we would just find another less spammable, slightly less effective skill chain.

Shadow prison is the problem. Please fix it. When I'm theorizing ways to fit shadow prison into a monk build, then it needs a bloody nerf. It also lets teams bring 5 billion defensive skills to the field, sit in wards, and poof-poof spike. It's just hurting gameplay.

Not sure how easy it would be to find another 'slightly less effective skill chain' that would still actually do the trick and straight kill.

Consider BLS is now a lead attack or must follow a lead attack (honestly i'd put BLS as the Black equivalent to Golden Lotus Strike, just in not sucky form. Put it like 5/10 lead attack giving 3..13..16E if target is hexed or something like that. Or same stats as off-hand requiring a lead, maybe slightly lower recharge and energy gain). Now you can't use BLS as part of a 2 x dual skill chains (and no other skill chain can lead to a straight kill on a full target). How exactly could you have a chain that manages the energy required? Without BLS, energy becomes a serious issue, especially if you plan to use Shadow Prison + IAS + Twisting Fangs (already 20E gone here and you still miss 3 attack skills, for a MINIMUM of 35E combo, but more likely 40E if you want to keep the same damage).

There's combos like AoD-GPS-Horns-Falling-Twisting but everyone knows that energy is an issue there and it's not nearly as efficient as the SP spike to straight kill a target, it's more of a skirmishing combo than something usable in main fight.

BLS being a straight off-hand is what allows all this, because it gives you huge emanagement AND a straight off-hand in the middle of your combo on a good recharge. I mean, BLS is a damn good skill and i wouldn't like seeing it nerfed, but i could understand why it would be. Otherwise you can at least change BSS. The 2 straight off-hands requiring a hex is what allows this more than Shadow Prison. Subbing one for GPS adds another requirement AND ends up costing a lot of energy (especially if it's BLS).

But ya, it is definitely hurting the game play in general. Shadow Prison allowed to turn melee chars in something close to a caster spike and it takes a lot out of the game. If their fix to it is honestly just to tweak BoA, it's gonna take a while before anything changes and the game isn't actually 'young' enough to continually have long periods before anything chances.

Zuranthium · Feb 28, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

If anything gets changed, it should be Burst of Agression. Change the layout of the skill so that it starts with a 1 second duration at 0 Strength. Enact a similar change for Tiger Stance. Now Assassins have to use Frenzy (makes them a damage magnet) or Flurry (drops the overall damage). Although, Flurry too needs to be changed because it only affects the base damage of weapon attacks not any of the modifiers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

But ya, it is definitely hurting the game play in general. Shadow Prison allowed to turn melee chars in something close to a caster spike and it takes a lot out of the game. If their fix to it is honestly just to tweak BoA, it's gonna take a while before anything changes and the game isn't actually 'young' enough to continually have long periods before anything chances.

Well, teleports should drain adrenaline, so there's that fix which needs to put in to stop Warrior tele-spikes. But fixing IAS stances is the way to go, imo, if this is even a BIG problem at all. Nerfing the Black Strike skills would be horrendous.

~Z

Riotgear · Feb 28, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

If anything gets changed, it should be Burst of Agression. Change the layout of the skill so that it starts with a 1 second duration at 0 Strength. Enact a similar change for Tiger Stance. Now Assassins have to use Frenzy (makes them a damage magnet) or Flurry (drops the overall damage). Although, Flurry too needs to be changed because it only affects the base damage of weapon attacks not any of the modifiers.

Like I said, they're going to be playing whack-a-mole, and they're going to wind up hurting IAS in general just so they can keep assassins from using it. Maybe sins will bring +energy daggers and use Tiger's Fury (which is also 5 sec at 0 attribute), who knows, the point is that if you need to nerf an entire line of skills because they're being abused by a class that wasn't capable of abusing them in the past, the problems lie elsewhere.

Kill the problem at the source.

Quote:

Nerfing the Black Strike skills would be horrendous.

Nerfing the Black strike skills would bring the class back to lead-offhand-dual series again. The class was designed around that, and it's going to be impossible to balance it properly when their core mechanics are being bypassed. The only other ways to bypass a lead are by paying 10e while enchanted, using your elite slot, or knocking someone down.

Although honestly, Shadow Prison needs to get hit too. It completely removes the two biggest drawbacks to melee (positioning and kiting). Brainless skills need to go.

Quote:

Force Black Lotus Strike to follow a lead attack.

The reason I say BLS should BE a lead attack is because it prevents using it in tandem with Unsuspecting Strike, which would be just as bad.

Symbol · Feb 28, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Nerfing the Black strike skills would bring the class back to lead-offhand-dual series again. The class was designed around that, and it's going to be impossible to balance it properly when their core mechanics are being bypassed.

GPS/BLS were there since Factions. Clearly offhand - dual was an intended design mechanic. If you want to make people take lead attacks, make them not suck. Nerfing the black attacks isn't going to force people to take leads, they'll just stop playing sins.

Patccmoi · Feb 28, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

GPS/BLS were there since Factions. Clearly offhand - dual was an intended design mechanic. If you want to make people take lead attacks, make them not suck. Nerfing the black attacks isn't going to force people to take leads, they'll just stop playing sins.

The problem is that there is now 2 straight off-hand requiring the SAME requirement. That's what breaks the system.

Before, if you wanted to do a combo with something like BLS-dual-GPS-dual, you needed a hex and an enchant. Or you had Falling Spider, which required a knocked foe (which you can do with Horns, but Horns isn't one of the heavy hitters like BoS that lead to straight kill combos). Not necessarily that complicated, but still harder to reach, and GPS is 10E to make up for the 'easy to meet' requirement, while BLS GIVES you energy, and BSS is 5E and poisons on top (seriously BSS is soooo much better than GPS it's sad).

I'm not against straight off-hands, i think a couple of options are fine. But as long as you have 2 straight off-hands requiring the same thing, then it's simply going to be offhand-dual-offhand-dual.

And i know you're play other sins than SP spikers and know their worth, so don't say something like 'nerfing the black attacks will make people stop playing sin'. Are Moebius sins bad? Do they absolutely require both black to be straight off-hands to work? Are Temple Strike sins horrible? Do they use blacks? No, the only build that actually requires 2 straight black offhands is SP spikers (or about the same build where you could change the elite for something else and use Siphon Speed/Expose Defenses for opening hex).

Personally i'd change BSS into a lead attack, i think that's really the solution i like the most. Make it 5/4 (or 5/6 at most), same +damage, poisons target if hexed (doesn't require the hexed part to be able to hit, just to be able to poison). Then it'll actually become a very solid lead attack, something that's lacking, while removing the brainless 4 attack combos. You'll still be able to replace it with Falling Spider in the combo btw, but it'll mean sacrificing something to knock (either damage by using horns or extra skill slot for Mark of Instability) and it's going to become much less reliable.

I think that changing IAS is seriously just asking to play whack-a-mole as was pointed out. You're not hitting the source of the problem. I'm in favor of a change to BoA too btw, but not ONLY that.

Symbol · Feb 28, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

And i know you're play other sins than SP spikers and know their worth, so don't say something like 'nerfing the black attacks will make people stop playing sin'. Are Moebius sins bad? Do they absolutely require both black to be straight off-hands to work? Are Temple Strike sins horrible? Do they use blacks? No, the only build that actually requires 2 straight black offhands is SP spikers (or about the same build where you could change the elite for something else and use Siphon Speed/Expose Defenses for opening hex).

Yes, I play other builds beside SP spikers, and I think that they have potential, but to 90% of the PvP population, sins ARE shadow prison spikers. If the point is just to get rid of SP spike, fine, nerf away, but it's not going to lead to an upsurge of other sin builds using leads, because the leads suck.

In any build other then shadow prison, the hex requirement of the black offhands is a liability, IMO it's mainly the shadow step + snare + hex that so neatly fits all the requirements of the build which makes the combo so efficient in SP spike.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Personally i'd change BSS into a lead attack, i think that's really the solution i like the most. Make it 5/4 (or 5/6 at most), same +damage, poisons target if hexed (doesn't require the hexed part to be able to hit, just to be able to poison). Then it'll actually become a very solid lead attack, something that's lacking, while removing the brainless 4 attack combos. You'll still be able to replace it with Falling Spider in the combo btw, but it'll mean sacrificing something to knock (either damage by using horns or extra skill slot for Mark of Instability) and it's going to become much less reliable.

Well see, that's not a nerf per-se. I'd use this all the time, because having a strong lead on a quick recharge would be really, really good. That skill would make unsuspecting look like a joke. For example in a Moebius build BSS - exhausting - moebius - DB would be arguably superior than the current siphon - BSS - moebius - DB version because it removes the two biggest weaknesses of the build, the moderate recharge of the combo opener and the hex requirement to start the combo.

I'd definitely use that as a combo opener for shattering assault too. BSS - wild - shattering assault - impale? I'd be all over that.

But what I'm afraid of is A.net taking the black offhands, changing them to lead attacks, and leaving everything else the same. That would kill those skills, and not just for SP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I think that changing IAS is seriously just asking to play whack-a-mole as was pointed out. You're not hitting the source of the problem. I'm in favor of a change to BoA too btw, but not ONLY that.

I don't mind changing IAS if it means that the duration will scale higher than it does now with investment. If it was something like 1...12...16 seconds that would actually make it worth taking on a primary warrior while avoiding assassin abuse.

Patccmoi · Feb 28, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Yes, I play other builds beside SP spikers, and I think that they have potential, but to 90% of the PvP population, sins ARE shadow prison spikers. If the point is just to get rid of SP spike, fine, nerf away, but it's not going to lead to an upsurge of other sin builds using leads, because the leads suck.

Well that's why i suggest putting a good lead in place. Moebius are getting more and more popular too btw, you see them quite often now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Well see, that's not a nerf per-se. I'd use this all the time, because having a strong lead on a quick recharge would be really, really good. That skill would make unsuspecting look like a joke. For example in a Moebius build BSS - exhausting - moebius - DB would be arguably superior than the current siphon - BSS - moebius - DB version because it removes the two biggest weaknesses of the build, the moderate recharge of the combo opener and the hex requirement to start the combo.

I'd definitely use that as a combo opener for shattering assault too. BSS - wild - shattering assault - impale? I'd be all over that.

But what I'm afraid of is A.net taking the black offhands, changing them to lead attacks, and leaving everything else the same. That would kill those skills, and not just for SP.

Well i don't believe straight nerfs is often a good solutions, it's just the way ANet uses nearly all the time and should stop using. Reworking skills so they remain viable but not overpowered is more interesting than hitting them with the nerf bat and never see them in play again.

And no, this version of BSS wouldn't make Unsuspecting look like a joke. Unsuspecting can hit for +100 damage on someone with more than 90% health and has absolutely no need for hexes, BSS couldn't do anything close to that for spiking. And Unsuspecting unconditional damage is about on-par, it's just 10E vs 5E. BSS would be an average lead if target isn't hexed, and a good one if he is, and since hexing costs 5E at least, i think the 5E cost is fair.

You COULD say Black Spider Strike would make Black Mantis Strike look like a joke. But it already does, BMS is just horrible and should do as much damage as BSS and be 5E before it's considered on a sin bar (it would actually be decent then).

It might also look too strong compared to Jagged Strike, but i'd like to say the same thing... Jagged Strike should be doing some +damage, not BSS be worse.

All leads are stupidly weak. Basically lead attacks should be comparable in strength to any attack skills from other classes (like, compare Victorious Sweep or Rending Sweep to lead attacks...) because they're what you can use directly. But most lead attacks just do minor damage with so-so effects which makes the lead-offhand-dual system worthless and every1 skips leads.

Buff the leads, and take BSS away as a second 'hex requirement off-hand' and you could see various sin combos. I can't say i trust ANet to do it, but meh can always suggest. I saw many things i suggest come into play directly in the past (not saying it's necessarily because i suggested it or that they even saw my suggestion, but it gave me the impression that sometimes ANet listens. Sometimes...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

I don't mind changing IAS if it means that the duration will scale higher than it does now with investment. If it was something like 1...12...16 seconds that would actually make it worth taking on a primary warrior while avoiding assassin abuse.

Oh i agree with that. I think that they should definitely make them viable on primary warriors, not just kill the skills.

The Ernada · Feb 28, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Shadow prison is the problem. Please fix it. When I'm theorizing ways to fit shadow prison into a monk build, then it needs a bloody nerf. It also lets teams bring 5 billion defensive skills to the field, sit in wards, and poof-poof spike. It's just hurting gameplay.

I agree. I've seen too many teams bring a ton of defensive and healing skills in their build. In any other build if you brought that much defense you wouldnt have much offense, but with the SP assassins these builds can still spike you down in seconds. Something's definately not right there...

vapor311 · Feb 28, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

I think before we're took quick to strike down Shadow Prison, we have to compare it to the other elite shadow stepping skills. SP matches AoD and SM in duration, but costs 5 energy less. This is compensated by the fact that both SM and AoD allow the user to drop the enchantment and escape, something that SP does not. SP's greatest edge over the other two is that it quickly allows Assassins to utilize a broken off-dual-off-dual combo.

In a perfect world, all three skills would see equal time depending on the situation that you wanted to apply them to. The reality is that why would I ever take SM or AoD when the SP combo is that much better than either of the other two.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 28, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Flurry too needs to be changed because it only affects the base damage of weapon attacks not any of the modifiers.

Flurry already works that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Well, teleports should drain adrenaline, so there's that fix which needs to put in to stop Warrior tele-spikes.

I agree on that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

But fixing IAS stances is the way to go, imo, if this is even a BIG problem at all. Nerfing the Black Strike skills would be horrendous.

It is, and why would it be horrendous? Sins were balanced around lead-offhand-dual chains. Bypassing this means bypassing a fundamental element of Sin design. I don't see how fixing that would be horrendous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Although honestly, Shadow Prison needs to get hit too. It completely removes the two biggest drawbacks to melee (positioning and kiting). Brainless skills need to go.

+1 on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Shadow prison is the problem. Please fix it. When I'm theorizing ways to fit shadow prison into a monk build, then it needs a bloody nerf. It also lets teams bring 5 billion defensive skills to the field, sit in wards, and poof-poof spike. It's just hurting gameplay.

Now I'm curious. How would you justify fitting Shadow Prison in a monk build when you can take return?

Oren The Destroyer · Feb 28, 2007, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

MESHUGGAH > YOUR BAND. K THX.

Don't make me bring out the shovel.....Opeth=GOD

Ahem...I believe a reasonable change would be to tweak the duration, requiring more into deadly to achieve the same effect. For example, 8-9 into deadly to achieve a 5 or so second snare. As for IAS skills, most are fine the way they are, although most could use a longer recharge...

Symbol · Feb 28, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Well that's why i suggest putting a good lead in place. Moebius are getting more and more popular too btw, you see them quite often now.

The few times I've seen moebius it was in combination with BSS. I've only seen it used once with a lead (it was LMS - exhausting).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Well i don't believe straight nerfs is often a good solutions, it's just the way ANet uses nearly all the time and should stop using. Reworking skills so they remain viable but not overpowered is more interesting than hitting them with the nerf bat and never see them in play again.

My impression is that this is meant to be an emergency balance update. That means that come this weekend they'll just hack away at anything that looks problematic, and as a result we'll be stuck with a neutered BSS/BLS until the next full rebalance.

Quote:

And no, this version of BSS wouldn't make Unsuspecting look like a joke. Unsuspecting can hit for +100 damage on someone with more than 90% health and has absolutely no need for hexes, BSS couldn't do anything close to that for spiking. And Unsuspecting unconditional damage is about on-par, it's just 10E vs 5E. BSS would be an average lead if target isn't hexed, and a good one if he is, and since hexing costs 5E at least, i think the 5E cost is fair.

Let's compare. If the condition isn't met, your proposed BSS does more damage than unsuspecting (DM instead of crit strikes) and costs 5e vs 10e. If the condition is met then you get a ~100 damage unsuspecting vs a ~60 damage BSS + 19-21 seconds of poison. The cost is still 5e vs 10e, I don't buy the hex costs e argument because
a) The hex generally does something useful on its own
and
b) You can use other people's hexes.

The condition on unsuspecting is harder to meet and makes it much less useful for spiking, remember that if we're going with lead - offhand - dual you no longer threaten a straight kill, you'll have to hit damaged targets for that. Unsuspecting offers the bonus when you least want it.

So, yeah, I maintain buffed lead attack BSS makes unsuspecting a joke. I would never choose it in any build where I want to run a lead-offhand-dual combo. I'm not saying that it's OPed, I'm saying that unsuspecting isn't very good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

You COULD say Black Spider Strike would make Black Mantis Strike look like a joke. But it already does, BMS is just horrible and should do as much damage as BSS and be 5E before it's considered on a sin bar (it would actually be decent then).

It might also look too strong compared to Jagged Strike, but i'd like to say the same thing... Jagged Strike should be doing some +damage, not BSS be worse.

Yes, these skills are weak and desperately need a buff.